That almost tempts me to start watching Dollhouse again. Almost...

Dunno. I like Dollhouse and see its potential, but if they really want to gain a good following, they need to emphasize an overall arc and mystery with which we can emphasize with the characters evolving as we proceed to follow them through their course of events.

Certainly worth watching again, the new eps are ace!

Not me I'm done with it. Really the story lines are boring. I'm sorry! Josh peaked with Buffy and Angel it over! Shows like Vampire diaries and Doctor Who heck even the Sarah Jane Adventures are just more interesting and better story telling. Sorry but I think FOX should have promoted and put their eggs in the Sarah Conner Chronicles.

The first 3 eps have sucked, not as bad as the early eps of season 1, but pretty unforgivable. Ira Steven Behr's guidance of "Crash" Season 2 is much, much better drama. Friday nights on Starz, folks.

Joss is a realist...

He realizes that the viewing community is VERY small for this, he was immediately oustracized becauseof his survival over T:SCC, and his viewers are dropping off like flies in the middle of a blizzard.

Hope he realizes that it is close to death, and has his next project already in the works... - kh

"Sorry but I think FOX should have promoted and put their eggs in the Sarah Conner Chronicles. "

You mean a progam that

A) Cost considerably more

B) Got less ratings from the majority of the nights they were programmed from.

C) That they got NO money from DVD sales of.

Whatever you say about FOX and Dollhouse, network execs would have to be complete morons to pick TSCC over DH.

I hate to say this with all the Terminator anger out there, but it seems that Dollhouse is going right over so many people's heads.

Alas, the common curse of good sci-fi is that most people don't get it, and when they don't get something it must be ( insert your own insult here).

Well lets be fair here, it's not as if Dollhouse hasn't had it's fair share of problems and flaws, but at it's core it has an excellent premise and a TON of potential, and as cheap as it is to make, it's a pity Scifi channel doesn't pick it up and run with it .

But considering Scifi (oops syfy) is part of NBC/Universal...well yeah...

Wish FOX would just bite the bullet and put on a scifi channel of their own. Their FX channel is great for drama, would love to see what they could do with Scifi.

I've tried -- and I bought the season 1 DVD -- and I like the actors involved and I love Josh ... BUT for whatever reason, this show just doesn't interest me. My guess is that it's too dark for my tastes these days.

DUH, stupid typist that I am: I love JOSS!!!!!!

"Whatever you say about FOX and Dollhouse, network execs would have to be complete morons to pick TSCC over DH."

" If they had put a gun to my head and told me to choose, I would say renew 'Sarah Connor.' " Joss Whedon

Muldfeld, has Crash really improved in season 2? I'm a big Eric Roberts fan (yes, he has at least one!), so I've been curious to see the show, but I don't get Starz. I'll have to wait for DVD.

And to stay on topic, the reason why I agree with Fox's choice of Dollhouse over Terminator is because the former's characters are actually interesting. Nothing ever developed with the plots or characters on Terminator.

I like Lena Headey, but Sarah was DULL. Three dots? C'mon, that's an amateurish element a film student writing his first screenplay would come up with to motivate a character to action, even if she is insane. The sleep clinic episode -- is she actually in the clinic or a van with a dead man? -- was ludicrous.

The outdoor public memorial episode was artificial and silly. Complete strangers would just open up to John Connor? I don't think so. He's one of the creepiest emo kids ever. No one would talk to him for fear he'd stab them.

Some of the casting was downright horrendous. Leven Rambin (Riley) and Stephanie Jacobsen (Jesse) were awful. Jacobsen seems to think acting tough means having a permanent crease in your brow and acting sexy means jutting out your chin and never fully closing your mouth.

But some casting was great. Summer Glau's Cameron had a lot of potential, but the creators squandered it. The library episode tried to mimic subtlety, but it was a facade that resulted in nothing of substance being said. Cameron just isn't able to feel anything for the guy with cancer. What a shocker. But was she trying to or not? I found myself not caring out of frustration.

Brian Austin Green was the best cast member, but there were entire episodes without Reese. Where did he go during these long absences? I bet the creators didn't know.

The only other second season storyline of interest was Weaver, Ellison, and Cromartie, but, again, they didn't spend nearly enough time on them to warrant continuing the series. They should have maintained the first season storyline of trying to stop Judgment Day from occurring by tracking down the beginnings of SkyNet. That doesn't mean they needed to have a Terminator-of-the-week format. They just needed to do something as interesting as the first season. That's why I watched the second season when I really didn't want to -- because I kept waiting for it to get good again.

And I think that was the main problem with the series that its fans don't seem to get: It groped at being profound or fascinating, but it wasn't. Two seasons and in the end, it amounted to zero, and not because the series wasn't given a chance. It WAS. So now it's Dollhouse's turn.

Speaking of which, Dollhouse may not be perfect, but its problems are far from the ones Terminator suffered. Instead of starting strong and going nowhere like Terminator, Dollhouse is going in the opposite direction.

They started finding their footing in the second half of the first season and have been progressively establishing interesting themes, an overarching plot, and character arcs. The series is always asking questions, like "Who are you really at your core with everything else stripped away? Are you good or evil?" I find that very engaging.

And as far as the actors and characters, many have already said on these message boards that Eliza Dushku has finally started acting, which is nice to see; Echo is growing immensely as a character; incorporating Ballard into the Dollhouse was a great idea that's opened up a totally new direction; Enver Gjokaj (had to look that up) is endearing as Victor; Olivia Williams manages to strike a terrific balance between making Adelle DeWitt intimidating yet engaging and even vulnerable; and even Topher, who annoyed the hell out of me in the beginning, has become a more fully realized character with interesting strengths and faults.

That's not to say I love the entire cast. I'm still not sure what I make of Dichen Lachman as Sierra. She's talented, but there's something about her that irritates me. And I just hope they don't loose any more focus on Harry Lennix's character (Boyd).

(Wow, did not mean to write so much, but I've been getting so sick of hearing from people who actually think Terminator was good and Dollhouse isn't.)

What does Joss Whedon's opinion have to do with Dollhouse potentially making FOX more money than TSCC?

Joss isn't a bean counter for FOX.

Maybe if Fox bothered to actually PROMOTE Dollhouse, their numbers would go up. This show is dying of nothing other than network neglect. SHAME on Fox!

Dudes, what's with all the super bitter TSCC fans that pop out of the woodwork somewhere or another on the comments of every Dollhouse article? It wasn't a one-or-the-other type choice. Dollhouse is NOT to blame for the loss of TSCC! Also, Dollhouse is a wonderful show with a lot to offer -- you should watch it and support original sci-fi programming on FOX, rather than complaining about what's already been done and is irreversible. We're all sci-fi fans and fans of good writing and compelling shows, here. Don't be hatin'. :)

Anyone who boycotts a show because some other show got canceled is not working with a full deck.

Joss may not know how to cast a show or pick a network to air it, but you've got to love his gallows humor.

I dunno... I was kind of lukewarm about Dollhouse, and the first few episodes of season 2 didn't strike me as outstanding...

then I finally saw "Epitaph One" this weekend.

Holy crap! It blew my mind and totally synced to the season 2 episodes. I am totally psyched about the new season and cannot wait to see how it develops!!

"What does Joss Whedon's opinion have to do with Dollhouse potentially making FOX more money than TSCC?

Joss isn't a bean counter for FOX."

Xactly. Plus there's the possibility he was being you know diplomatic.

"Anyone who boycotts a show because some other show got canceled is not working with a full deck. "

Xactly again. But then a certain % of the TSCC fans have proven that with their behaviour over the past six months.

Mind you, Browncoats hardly covered themselves with glory in that respect in the past.

I think if more people watched Epitaph One, there would be a lot less hate for Dollhouse and season 2 in particular.

I blame FOX for not airing it in the States.

Dollhouse is not Buffy or Serenity or Angel, but it is still better than the vast majority of shows out there. What scifi shows are better? Heroes? Fringe? Lost? Give me a break.

they better start doing something crazy quick.. im tired of this client of the week nonsense.. and ive been watching on tv since day one!

I'll be the first to defend Dollhouse to anybody, but to put it in the same category or on the same playing field as Lost is just absurd.

Frankly, even Fringe is better.

But Dollhouse is still better then a lot of the other trash on network TV.

LMAO this is to okitsme

To say that The Vampire Diaries is better than Dollhouse means one of two things: first, you're insane or second, you're a 12-year-old girl who hearts Edward. Either way, thank you for playing. You may go now.

"LMAO this is to okitsme

To say that The Vampire Diaries is better than Dollhouse means one of two things: first, you're insane or second, you're a 12-year-old girl who hearts Edward. Either way, thank you for playing. You may go now."

Well a number of his statements have been eyebrow raising to put it nicely.

Dollhouse is far from the best genre show out there, no matter what certain websites might tell you, but compared to some out there it's pretty good.

And compared to ANY of the vampire shows currently out there, it's practically high art.

sorry but dollhouse sucks and i will never watch another episode.
this show does nothing at all for my tastes

m,aybe FOX should of left TSCC alone

The main thing about Epitaph One is that it can be the series finale whenever it does end. It shows the end result of that tech getting commonly used and the few that fight to not be enslaved in the worst way.

anyone else reminded of the Spiritual Switchboard of FreeJack?

I miss TSSC too but I don't hate Dollhouse for its cancellation.

@And compared to ANY of the vampire shows currently out there, it's practically high art.

I really can't agree with that. True Blood has Dollhouse beat hands down. Dollhouse has a better head writer, that's about it.

Angry John, to be honest, I haven't watched Season 1 of Crash, but I was never a fan of the sensationalism of "The Shield" for which Glen Mazzarra wrote. Ira Behr said the network was desperate and came to him. He cut out most of the cast and totally changed the course of the show. One thing I can say for sure is that the drama on Crash is a hell of a lot more interesting than what I've see on Dollhouse this season. There are a lot of thematic parallels with The 4400 and things are quite slow, but there are some surprising things happening; the ex-amateur league baseball player is the most interesting.

The first 2 eps are for free on itunes, but you shouldn't judge things too harshly on those alone. Ira says things really heat up around ep 6, but it's already got me very interested, based on the first 4.

For all you TSCC shouldnt have been cancelled ppl i agree ,loved that show the finale was awesomne
but quit your bitching seriously
dollhouse failing dosent bring back TSCC
doll house is finally getting good now that fox has a hands off approach
too bad more peeps were turned off in the first season

so again quit your bitchinover TSCc its not coming back-quit the dollhouse bashing
FOX dosent care either way they are ruled by chimpanzees with a dartboard
if your gonna be pissed over a show be pissed over firefly

"I hate to say this with all the Terminator anger out there, but it seems that Dollhouse is going right over so many people's heads.

Alas, the common curse of good sci-fi is that most people don't get it, and when they don't get something it must be ( insert your own insult here)."

LOL! Oh, that's a riot. This 'people don't get it argument' is the same thing that a friend tried with me on The Matrix Reloaded. Like that movie, I 'get' Dollhouse just fine, and like that movie, it's not a very good series. However, when you really have no argument to stand on or there is a nagging doubt in the back of your mind, I guess your best bet is to just attack the character or intelligence of your opponents.

Season 2 has been better than season 1, but that's really not saying much.

I am a bigger TSCC fan, but watching Dollhouse's Season 1 eps from 6 onward quite impressed me. The problem is that this season isn't strongly continuing with that story. These stand alones suck and it's not the first time Joss has done this. Take a look back at all the seasons of shows he's been heavily involved with. Buffy Season 3 took forever to get off the ground and had a terrible season premiere. Same with Angel Seasons 2 and 3 and 5; now, he seems to be fouling up Dollhouse's first few eps of the season all over again and it's just silly not to start with a bang when the end of Season 1 was so great. The stand alones are killing the audience potential.

I have a lot of respect for Joss. Unlike Abrams, the guy actually has heart and puts his love for the dilemmas of our world into his writing. I just wish he knew how to start of the seasons better.

I do like Topher, though.

Angry John, here's a link to an interview with Ira Behr about Crash Season 2; he mentions Eric Roberts, who I never liked until this series.
http://www.thefutoncritic.com/rant.aspx?id=20090918_crash

nice post angry jonny - very welll reasoned.

Ugghhh, no! I think I would rather watch re-runs of The Price Is
Right.

If you skip the first six (Fox controlled) episodes, Dollhouse has been pretty great, though provoking sci-fi. Is it perfect? No. Is it better written than TSCC or SGU? Hell, yes. Dollhouse has been more interesting then the first four eps of SGU. (I have hopes for SGU, but they are dimming rapidly with every dull, irritating episode...). I'm just glad that the writers here finally (*finally* FINALLY) stopped bashing Dollhouse every five seconds (mostly). SGU will make it or crash on the quality of it's own writing,a nd so far, we've gotten a D-grade rehash of the first 4 eps of BSG - only with duller, more forgettable, and vastly more irritating characters. Fix it!

I am constantly amazed by the decision process of network executives

"Yes, we have hired you, Mr. Joss Whedon, the man who arguably is more known for doing season long arcs than anyone in television, to come to our network and run a hot new show for us."

"Now, do whatever you want with the show, but whatever you do, DON'T do any arcs."

"Yes, we know we told you that back in the '90s when your arc shows were successful and watched and there weren't any other arc shows and we had PROOF that arc shows couldn't be successful."

"But now there is “Heroes” and “Lost” and “Fringe” and that PROVES that arc shows can't be successful."

"Oh and by the way, could you make one of your show's characters a talking car . . . ? or an unemployed drunken, former Baywatch star . . .? Either way, we have good numbers on that."

I tried to watch dollhouse, but I just couldn't get into it. My problem is with Eliza, she's just not good enough to carry the role of Echo. Angel, Firefly, and Buffy were wonderfully casted, and the leads in those shows could carry the show. Eliza was good as Faith, but as you can see she was a secondary character.

I am tired of the TSCC fans bashing DH, and then the DH fans freaking out and bashing TSCC. I watched every episode of both, and I liked TSCC better. It is what it is.

I find it curious that this website always has something negative, or in this case sarcastic, when it comes to Dollhouse. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that it is competing against SGU. I do think Dollhouse has its problems but at least it is original and isn't a watered down BSG.

Because of this conflict of interest I could care less about this website's opinion on Dollhouse.

"I have a lot of respect for Joss. Unlike Abrams, the guy actually has heart and puts his love for the dilemmas of our world into his writing. I just wish he knew how to start of the seasons better."

That I can agree with. Look at how Abrams started Lost for example. And I hate to bring Heroes up, because post S1 it's the shits, but look at how that started.

Or heck FlashFroward.

Compare them to the damp squib that was DH's S1 premiere. Well-acted, but postively no snap to the writing of either of the two possible premieres. No wonder people yawned and turned off.

And as for ep 3....

"Now, do whatever you want with the show, but whatever you do, DON'T do any arcs."

Oh rubbish. They said standalones, they didn't specify the writing for the first five eps of season 1 had to be shits. The responsibility for the ratings plumetting lies with Whedon and the writers.

S1 of DH still better than the creeping bore of S2 TSCC though.

with any show you can boil its description down to a sentece..like trek was wagon train in space..b5..the UN in space ..buffy girl kicks evils arse etc..

dollhouse is mindwiped kids in a brothel...

see that premise no matter how well written is going to turn most people off.

so its a bit much to ever expect this to be a hit.

Dollhouse is not bad... I'm still watching it, but I have to admit I'm not impressed about that show... It would be better Joss Whedon to make Spike Spin off tv show instead it...
I’m dying to see Spike and some related to BTVS show characters on tv again! Spike is Whedon's best character – I'm a big fan of Whedonverse mainly because of Spike (James Marsters)
Angel and Firefly were much better than Dollhouse too! Sorry, but this is my opinion!

Krom - I agree, to an extent, that is what people do. Right or wrong. However, if that's all thy're actually seeing when they actually watch Dollhouse, then they're blind. Yes, there is payment. Yes there is sex. But this is about the subjugation of another individual's will and personality for the benefit of another party and the moral, social and philosophical implications of it.

I do agree with Max452 - Buffy, Angel, and Firefly were wonderfully casted - I loved almost all of the main characters - they were GREAT (except Xander - I've never liked him lol)
I like only Whiskey/Dr. Sounders and Topher on Dollhouse… no one of the other character can draw my attention… I loved Eliza Dushku as Faith, but as Echo…

Have you people watched S2E3? The second season started a bit poorly, going back to the 'engagement of the week' format albeit with arc-y stuff in there. But E3 hit it out of the park. The college prof (okay a college prof affording a doll is a bit unrealistic) trying to convince 'Kiki' that she has power over him when in fact she has none at all? Juxtaposition much? Not to mention Enver's outstanding stints as scary Terry, and Kiki. I can't believe people didn't like this ep. There was also the typical funny Joss dialogue between Ballard and the other Handler in the clothes store waiting room.

Anyone who uses "ppl" in a post instead of "people" is a retarded fool.

I am a comic book fan and I enjoy the Friday night line up of Smallville, Dollhouse, Sanctuary, and SGU. To me these shows are live action comic books. If ppl (@jocala this is for you -- retard) are fans of comic books and scifi, then they should watch these shows. Otherwise, they will wind up like T:SCC. Another cancelled show. Think about it. However, if you totally don't like these shows, then don't watch them. Your choice, but don't criticise those that do.

Thanks, ks47!

And thanks, Muldfeld, for the link. Will give it a read.

Hmmmm....personally, I'm waiting for the eight season DVD boxset of Firefly that exists in my favorite alternate dimension...

thanks