"7 ways Dollhouse could have been great"

According to who? Do you think your vision of a story is better?

So, why haven't you created a tv series Mrs. Kathie Huddleston? If you feel that you can do better, why haven't you come up with your own innovative series?

Hmmm...

I agree with some of the points above, but the show's title was enough to keep many from tuning in.

I never really liked Dollhouse. I stuck with it because of Joss and Eliza and hoped it would somehow get better. As mentioned above, it's only JUST gotten good. Too bad really. It had potential, but I won't be mourning it's end. Well, hopefully this will free up Joss and Eliza to work on some projects that are worthy of they're talent.

I have really liked it since it came back on dec.2nd i will prob buy both seasons on dvd, really getting into now since season 2 has improved A LOT IMO.

I really have enjoyed the show the last 8 or so episodes it was ok before but has really picked it up, prob will buy both seasons on dvd eventually.

i like dollhouse. i'm sad that it is ending but as long as it wraps up, i'm good. i've come to the conclusion that any show that i like is going to be cancelled so all i can do is hope that they wrap it up.

I admit that I almost lost interest in Dollhouse about halfway through the first season (and then again once I went into mourning over TSCC) but once I finally got a glimpse of what Joss had in store, I was totally willing to wait it out, to let it unfold at a slower pace.

I strongly agree with #4 as Echo was always the most boring character on the show to me and I'm only just beginning to give a damn about her.

I also agree that Alpha was a bit of a let down. I'm still holding out hope that they have something really good happening with him soon.

But more than anything, #7.5 and #8 hit the nails on the head. Let's move forward.

Alan Tudyk needs to be a full-time character on a show somewhere. He's too good for these bit roles he gets all the time. I know... bring Firefly back and pretend the spear-thingy in "Serenity" never happened.

Joss should go back to CW so they have something worth watching. I still watch Smallville, and it might go another season, but it does need to end soon. I stopped watching One Tree Hill this season (so should have ended). All though, I never took the time to get into Supernatural and I keep hearing its good. No more 30 min sitcoms at all. The other shows I watched on there are gone, some before their time (Veronica Mars!).

I'll agree that most of season 1 sucked, but Epitaph One completely changed everything.

But at the end of the day, I'm at peace with Dollhouse and it's cancellation. I just look at it as a really good novel that took the first couple hundred pages to suck me in, but once it did I was blown away, and when it ends, it'll be just like finishing a great novel that I can look back on with love and move on taking a piece of it with me to whatever show I fall in love with next.

I would be soo disappionted to see Joss goto the CW. That channel just needs to die already.

I'd much prefer he went to a cable channel like AMC. Alongside Mad Men and Breaking Bad, I have a feeling Joss could find both critical acclaim and an audience for his work. Something he will never find on network tv, be it FOX or CW, or even ABC IMO.

Plus he could stick to the 13 episode format with no filler episodes.

in truth, there's only one thing Joss had to do to make Dollhouse great....NOT TAKE THE SHOW TO FOX!!! Honestly, I love Joss and all of his creations, but that guy has to learn that Fox will screw over any show that doesn't fit their "lowest common denominator". Don't get me wrong, they've had some good innovative shows (X-files is a prime example), but look what they did to Firefly...and Joss went back!?!?
Joss + Pen = Well written TV
Joss + Pen + Fox = Well written cancelled TV

The current CW might just screw him over too. Probably the only broadcast network that wouldn't is My Network TV and then who cares unless it became a flagship program for them.

From the beginning, I didn't think Eliza was the right person to play Echo. I didn't care for her acting in Buffy. But, as the show has continueed, I've started to like her. Unfortunately, I knew this show wouldn't last, simply because it was on FOX. I'm surprised they gave it a 2nd season. If they had canceled this show last year, it wouldn't have upset me. But, now, the show finally has that, "I can't wait til' the next episode vibe!". I hope Joss finds a network that will appreciate his genius, because I'm still not over the cancellation of Firefly and now that Dollhouse has gotten good, I'm upset to see it leaving , as well.

9. Should have utilized the fact that one could recreate a great mind more often than the making of trollips for pleasure. The Dollhouse became nothing more than a brothel, and had the potential instead to have been a powerful world changing mechanism for science, culture, and the world.

But if there is ever a low road to be taken, TV finds it.... -kh

The amoral tone of Dollhouse forced the viewer to "come down to its level". I seldom felt satisfied from an episode as I was always confronted with things like "this is so wrong" and "I'm supposed to enjoy this?" and "I hate the main (non-victim) characters". It was much easier on my sensitivities not to watch it. Call me a prude, but cancellation is probably the most morally correct thing to do with this series. On the other hand, I am and always will be a Firefly devotee and believe in Josh's writing abilities and vision. I just think the mark was missed this time... (or perhaps it was revenge on Fox).

@in truth, there's only one thing Joss had to do to make Dollhouse great....NOT TAKE THE SHOW TO FOX!!! Honestly, I love Joss and all of his creations, but that guy has to learn that Fox will screw over any show that doesn't fit their "lowest common denominator"

Joss didn't goto FOX with the idea for Dollhouse. Eliza Dushku went to Joss and talked him into coming back to TV after she struck a development deal with FOX, and Dollhouse is the show they came up with together. FOX was involved before Joss was.

And to be fair to FOX, they stuck by Dollhouse canceling a show that was doing better in the ratings over Dollhouse because they believed it had more potential. But if they hadn't meddled with the premise in the beginning demanding standalone episodes, aired Epitaph One in the states, etc, it probably would have done better early on. But they gave us 2 seasons and allowed the show to go out on it's own terms. So they should at least get credit for that.

"Call me a prude, but cancellation is probably the most morally correct thing to do with this series."

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - W. Shakespeare

#7 is the real point here. Epitaph One was outstanding and it gave such purpose to the second season. I wouldn't have (necessarily) changed anything, but all viewers should have had access to that episode without resorting to shady Internet sites.

This show has been good since Season 1 episode 6, and the second season was a improvement from the first season.

Dollhouse has become great, not perfect because no tv show is perfect

Hear Hear on the "don't ever make another series for Fox"!!! Joss Whedon keeps acting like the battered girlfriend of a serial abuser "really, if you'd just see him when he wasn't drunk/drugged/dumb, he's totally different." No, Joss, they're not, and you don't owe them ANYTHING anymore.

Yes, Joss should never have taken the show to Fox, we know how that goes, but Eliza was the one with the production deal there, and Joss did it as a friendly favor. Fox wanted the assignment of the week. They wanted titillation, then backed off from the recognition of the prostitution. Now that Fox is burning off episodes, Joss is compressing the arc of the show to give the loyal viewers some closure. Epitaph One was shot to show Fox that budgets did not have to be huge, and to show the potential of what could be done with the Dollhouse premise, but it was too late to get viewers to return to the show.

Joss should definitely be on Showtime, instead of network TV. Showtime's Dexter and Nurse Jackie show what is possible when the company backs off and lets the creatives run the show. Dollhouse could easily have worked in their lineup, and I hope Joss goes to cable with his next show.

And I hope Andy Richter goes cable next time too, as it's the only place anyone with an idea that doesn't involve regular groin punches to entertain. (I know I invoked Idiocracy, but look at what's on television: World's Dumbest Criminals, It Only Hurts When I Laugh, etc., mostly groin injuries.) Blame the general stupidity of the human TV viewing population and the pandering of the networks, not Joss.

It's not just Fox's fault that another Joss Whedon show is going off the air. When will Joss accept SOME responsibility? Just because he writes it does not automatically make it good. At the end of the day, the show would still be on the air if enough people watched it. But nearly the entire first season was BORING.

LMFAO! yeah... ok... well, thanks for your insight Sy-Fy!

*continues laughing*

"It's not just Fox's fault that another Joss Whedon show is going off the air. When will Joss accept SOME responsibility? Just because he writes it does not automatically make it good. At the end of the day, the show would still be on the air if enough people watched it. But nearly the entire first season was BORING."

Just this and his general snide smugness, for example 10k for Terminator and how much for Fireflop?

500 bucks?

The show's skeevy and ill-thought out, the cast are good, but the writers are about as sloppy as you get.

The thought of him being on the same networks as Breaking Bad, Dexter, The Shield, The Sopranos, Rome, and Deadwood etc?

He'll be shown up as the Grade A sloppy narcissist he is. Good at dialouge, half-assed at world-building, continuity, and plotting.

@TrekMac

"So, why haven't you created a tv series Mrs. Kathie Huddleston? If you feel that you can do better, why haven't you come up with your own innovative series?"

Don't act like an idiot. You can't just make a series, and the networks don't give a crap about innovative series - the want to make money, and you generally do that by targeting the level 1 cognitives (ie morons)

Hmmm...

Less focus on Echo would have been great! I stopped because the character bored me to death. The show always felt like it had no real direction.

No, the CW has enough genre series with Smallville, Supernatural (which is the best show ever) and The Vampire diaries.

I have always liked dollhouse. It has gotten better too but only because they are blowing their whole wad in these last few episodes as they have to wrap it up. So I get that. I'd say it's moving too fast but I get why.

And finally Acceptance. Beyond all things Fox and missed story opportunities and poor ratings and angst, we can now sit back and enjoy the last three hours of Dollhouse. How cool is that?

Um, it's not cool. I don't want to enjoy only 3 more hours, I want a lot more. I don't like this article -- it brings up some good points but I think it's badly written. The only interesting parts weren't even from the writer but from the other people quoted.

Also, I don't really get why you're criticizing it when it's leagues better than anything on SyFy. I mean Sanctuary ripped off Epitaph One for what is considered Sanctuary's best episode and it was nowhere near as interesting as E1.

You'd do better creating shows like Dollhouse than most of the crap you do.

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - W. Shakespeare

For Joss's view on that, notice that he put it into the mouths of a torturing paedophile vampire and Alpha.

7 ways Dollhouse could have been great was to have ended this show after those horrible 7 episodes or maybe it was 6 i watched from season 1 and then i never went near this show again.

okay, seriously what is with everyone and this lack of appreciation for Season 1? I freakin loved every episode of Dollhouse and thouroughly appreciated them as being part of the bigger story. I seriously never saw Echo as a boring character. The premise of the show was enough to make me tune in every week. as an aspiring writer, I admire all of the character development that I saw in season 1. The only reason I had my heart torn out in season 2 was because of the development of season 1. Sure, maybe all the episodes weren't "OMFG ACTION!" but I really appreciated Grey Hour, True Believer, Haunted, Briar Rose, Needs, and even The Target. Viewers of today just can't sit stilll long enough to really appreciate a good story. If they're not immediately assaulted with violence, sex, or some kind of dramatic scene of someone in hysterics, if a show doesn't have that in the beggining, it's immediately written off as boring and unwatchable. I am proud to say that I love Dollhouse, and I am honestly sad to watch it go.

Excuse me? "Could have been"

Dollhouse IS a great show. I was going to write a long paragraph explaining character development and all that good stuff, but I'lll just sum it up in one sentence.

Stupid people can't watch smart television.

to me, the biggest problem is Eliza. Joss was blinded by his friendship to her, and he can't see that she just doesn't have any range as an actress.
it's really sad when your lead actress is being outshined by your supporting cast (the actors who play sierra and victor are SO MUCH better at portraying different people than eliza).
Eliza is no Alyson Hannigan or Sarah Michelle Gellar. She's a pretty face, and a one-note actress and THAT is a huge failing of the show.

Why doesn't Joss take the studio hint and just start making 12 or 24 ep bundled shows that tells the grand story/vision - rather than trying to get a 7 year run of mediocrity. The Brits seem to do that consistently and very well with some of the short run shows that they come up with - quality over quantity.

I think Joss should do mini-series or short run series as suggested above, with tight writing to achieve a complete whole. These would be great.

One he could do is the interim time of Firefly which falls between the series end and the movie beginning. Tell of how Book leaves and why with some info on what exactly he was. Show how Simon becomes a more strong willed individual, able to stand up to Mal. Give some insight into what Anara is doing with maybe some contact with the crew. Let us know what the Blue Hand people are and Introduce us to Mr. Universe, etc... No need to ignore the film, just tell the story that happens to connect the 'verse as a whole.

Dollhouse was the same show all along - you just missed it (or, more likely as a lackey of Siffy, just chose to incessantly diss it until it was cancelled). Hopefully, Dollhouse will move to a better network.

Yes Dushku is hot, no she probably should NOT have been the lead actress, but she has been a bit better in season 2 IMO.

Eh, at it's heart, it's Eliza's show. Whether or not she shoulda been the lead actress or not is pretty moot considering the show wouldn't have existed without her.

But personally, I'd be fine to see Whedon make more Dr Horrible's Sing Along Blog's and other internet type stuff like that. A 15 minute weekly entry into Dr horrible's blog would be great fun!

I disagree with some of those points. To me a large part of the appeal was watching Echo slowly become a person and self-aware, and if the show wasn't being canceled I'd say it was still too soon for Echo to be as fully self-aware as she currently is.

I do agree that Alpha should have been written differently and played by another actor.

I personally did not mind the focus on engagements, because almost every episode moved the story along at least a little, and I thought the engagements were interesting.

I doubt any network other than FOX would have even aired Dollhouse. And they have made many positive changes at a network and I believe they'll continue to do so... why continue to criticize them?

I liked DH. It really like the episodes Gray Hour and True Believer and that is when the show got better. Now no show is perfect and this is what I would have like to see: 1) More screen time for the other actors. The cast is full of strong actors. I thought each one had their nice moments but not enough of them. And this has nothing to do with ED. I like her, and I like her in the lead. Its just that the cast was very strong and that talent needs to be seen. 2) Since the following is small first time run of the show during the summer of 13 episodes. 3) Run on second tier channels. These types of shows don't work on the four major channels. 4) Don't run on Friday nights.

I'm sorry, but I truly hate TV shows that give us everything in one or two eps. I like Joss' shows b/c he DOESN'T do that. Fox never gave this show a chance. They purposely put in the worst timeslot possible, didn't advertise and then started talks about canceling it after the second ep of season 1. People aren't going to watch a show the producing company doesn't support.
I, for one, am tired of the same old drivel. I find a cool show and it gets canceled almost immediately. It irks me. I don't watch much TV, but when I do find a show I like, I'm fiercely loyal and will not miss an ep. The continual cancelation of the good, non-standard shows makes me want to cancel my cable.

I find myself more willing to take a critique into consideration when the writer gets the information right. The episode was called "Belle Chose" NOT Bella. This isn't Twilight.

Some points you touch on are right on, BUT let us all remember if they had a full order season one, the events of S.2 may very well have been in the back half.

Also: there was a Paul Ballard in the Dollhouse. Government spy looking to bring it down? Oh yeah that guy is in the Attic and is named Mr. Dominick. Sympathetic handler who is interested in the well being of his charge even though he knows what he is involved in is of questionable ethics? Boyd.

I do agree tho, Joss needs to get away from Fox.

Your list is brilliant, but you discount the single greatest Dollhouse moment of the whole series: When Mellie turns out to be not just a doll, but a sleeper. Best moment, best episode.

I really liked Alan Tudyk as Alpha. And especially in his season 2 appearance because he struck me as the Joss Whedon version of The Joker! Think about it, the suit, the jokes, the obsession.

Your joking right. I’m falling asleep just reading this review.

Dollhouse sucked. In fact there was a poll at the PCA that said over 80% of people were not sad that the show was gone. So it seems most highly disagree with your #8. I thought this show was already gone.
Just because its Joss does not mean its good. And what happened to his ‘I will never work for FOX again.’
I’m still surprised it got a second season.

What we should have gotten was more TSCC.
But lets face it FOX sucks either way.

TSCC with more Cameron and Jameron. I like the sound of that!

@xerocks

Yep, Tudyk reminded me exactly of the joker because he was so damn crazed!!

Regarding reason 7 1/2, you have that power, SyFy. You could pick up the show and save it from Fox.

@What we should have gotten was more TSCC.

TSCC was brain dead dull. Dollhouse sucked through most of it's run, but once they started exploring the tech behind it and the implications it would have for the future of humanity, well that was interesting.

The only good thing to say about TSCC was that it was better than T:Salvation, but is that really saying much? No, not considered how bad Salvation was.. The whole franchise is tired and should be put down for good. The only time it was ever any good was in the 80s where it should have stayed.

To the point that I now have to re-type....

This reminds me of Star Trek Enterprise. It took four years and Braga and Berman to finally step aside and placing the overview of the show into the cappable hands of Manny Cotto, before the show finally became good and started doing the kind of episodes I would have expected from them right from the start. Unfortunately, at that point it was too little, too late. And then of course, B&B took back the reigns to create their crapfes that was, "These are the Voyages"

Dollhouse now, is exactly what I expected it to be from the start. I think we should have seen Echo become self-aware and go out into the real world right off the bat. She'd use her different imprints to help people, while elluding the Dollhouse. We could get glimpses of her life there through flashbacks and in seeing the other actives, like Victor and Seirra, go through their respective engagements and gradually become self-aware as well.

Come the end of the first season, we'd then see Echo forced to return to the Dollhouse, as a result of her headaches, while others, like Victor and Seirra, make their escape.

@ stargazer1682

Manny Coto's show Odyssey 5 on Showtime only lasted for 2 seasons. So why do you think he was doing a better job than the other 2 guys. Odyssey 5 was supposed to last for 5yrs but it was canceled because of low ratings. Same as Enterprise. It didn't really matter if Manny Coto, was producing it or not.

"Dollhouse IS a great show. I was going to write a long paragraph explaining character development and all that good stuff, but I'lll just sum it up in one sentence.

Stupid people can't watch smart television. "

Stupid people aren't able to see the gaping plot holes and contrivances in Whedon's writing.

And therefore become Browncoats.

It's sad to see this show gone so soon. Unlike some others I think that Eliza's range was improving with every episode. It can't be easy as an actor to switch roles that often.

From a story point of view, I would have liked to have gotten to know each of the 40 or so personalities inside Echo. After that, seeing the personality tug-of-war would have been great fun...

Oh well.

Fox's interference with the production can be argued back and forth, as none of us were there (unless Joss, Eliza, or Tamoh are posting anonymously). What I believe has occurred is that Joss, expecting to have more than two seasons (okay, let's just call it a season and a half), wrote the episodes to slowly build up the characters and plot. Season one was supposed to let the idea of the Dollhouse sink in...that the actives were always completely wiped and could never remember their imprints. Season Two was going to be about Echo recalling her imprints, her and Ballard having to hide it from everyone, and Alpha slowly hunting down all of Echo's romantic clients and killing them right after he let them confess their love for her, all the while claiming no moral responsibility for it because concepts like morality were for lesser creatures, like humans. Season Three would have been about the real horror of the Dollhouse, hinted at in [i]The Public Eye[/i]; namely, that Rossum Corporation was bent on global domination by using actives as sleepers within the world governments, influencing global policy a la the (fictional) Illuminati. Either the end of the third season or the entire fourth season would have been about our merry band of heroes, including Echo, Ballard, Boyd, Adele, Victor, Sierra, and Topher taking down Rossum. At the same time, we probably would have seen more of Dominic and Clyde attempting to shut down Rossum from the Attic.

Because Fox has canceled the series, now Joss has had to slam the pedal to the floor and mash it all into a few episodes instead of a few seasons. THAT is why the action is edge-of-your-seat now, and also why we're missing key elements, like Alpha's character development. Alpha's character could have been equivalent to the Watchmen's Dr. Manhatten, or even David Tennant's Doctor Who, the Time Lord who, when lacking a human companion, develops a rather nasty God complex, but we are left somewhat deprived of such character development in the name of brevity.

So, no, it is not entirely Fox's fault that the show wasn't to taste for 90% of Americans. It is Americans' taste for reality shows, in-your-face action and sex, and increasingly more hysterical drama. As a society, America is just not patient anymore, and can't sit still long enough to watch a character develop over a season.

I'd also like to point out that Joss was told about the cancellation in the [i]middle[/i] of season two production, instead of at the beginning. Had he been told ahead of time, I think season two would have been written very differently.

And those of you who are bashing Joss, saying that he's a sub-par writer...you're the 90% I'm talking about.

As a post-script, I will add that one of the best actors on the show is Enver Gjokaj (Victor). I about fell off the couch with his antics when they imprinted him with Topher.

Pirate,

A nicely written post that was a pleasure to read. Are you really Alan Tudyk? :)

What's almost as entertaining as the show itself is how many of the posters here act as intellectual show ponies parading back and forth to prove who's a 'smarter' viewer (or who knows what makes for a moronic one), whether it be for loving or hating Joss Whedon and his creations. We're all beautiful snowflakes, yada yada yada.

I agree. Victor as Topher made me spit up my beverage, it was so funny. The show will be missed but I look forward to the next potential-stunted vision Joss has in store that I can love, then sadly mourn soon after. Like goldfish. You don't want a show that stays on too long only to become a vegetable, like most of the shows on right now.

Such a tease, that Joss. Maybe that's why we keep coming back for more.

While I am on the fence with a lot of what the article had to say, at the end of the day, I respect the author's views on the show. But what I have a problem with are the comments, well one certain comment, that I have seen on various boards concerning this show: the immoral complications that were at hand.

First of all, if you have problems with immoral behavior period then you shouldn't be watching today's TV, let alone sci-fi. The immoral subject matter of Dollhouse was what Joss intended for us to see. It was raw, unnerving, and downright vomit inducing at times. Did he glorify it? No, he was shoving into our faces society at its worst and how we (as "Dolls" IMHO) would rather see goats and flowers and other shiny pretty things than to face the dark side of humanity. Human trafficking is a huge problem that goes unnoticed in the main public eye. Sure there is a special done every now and then, but it's not a problem that we as a society like to face. We would rather know about what goes on in Tiger Wood's bedroom than how to face the truth about some of the sickest individuals that are snatching people left and right and putting them in endless slavery/prostitution right up under our noses.

So no, the only "plotholes" and "immoral" acts that are at hand here isn't on TV, it's around you in your everyday life. Joss only magnifyed it TENFOLD with Dollhouse and people didn't like what they saw. Bottom line.

If this is the case, then great TV will never come around and again and might be a dying art.

You make some good points. I agree that Joss shouldn't compromise his vision, which is why he'll probably succeed more on smaller networks like The CW. And centering the series on a doll whose personality changed all the time made it difficult for people to identify with the lead character. Echo's true personality should have been revealed early on so viewers could have a steady character to hang on to. It seems to me Joss and Eliza came up with this idea at a lunch, then pitched it, it got picked up and put into production before Joss had fully thought out all the facets of making such a fascinating story. So what could have been great came out uneven. I hope his next venture does better!

Wow, KC, bitter about something? No creator is perfect, but some of the shows you have cited to run down Joss are crap: "The thought of him being on the same networks as Breaking Bad, Dexter, The Shield, The Sopranos, Rome, and Deadwood etc?" I've watched at least a few episodes of all of those shows; here's the truth: Breaking Bad is great but spends most of its time dwelling on the death of morality while tossing in the losers and psychos of the week, Dexter is very good but often times drift towards shock value, The Shield had its moments, but like The Sopranos was a repetitive wallow in abuse and destruction among the amoral, Rome was typical enjoyable British soap opera, and Deadwood didn't last because it could never really deliver. Most of the people who really enjoy these shows have never had to deal with the kind of people portrayed on them. They don't have to worry about the meth dealer in the complex, or the cops who spend more time shaking down the bad guys than arresting them. They don't see prosecutors or judges who are more worried about their jobs and agendas than about justice. They haven't been to war. They haven't had to worry about their business or employer being shaken down by the mob. Their ancestors weren't pioneers of any kind, instead waiting for civilization to be established before moving to a new area.

David Milch had no end game; he just keeps batting up lobs that have viewers hanging on to see where they fall, which is almost always out. His series would not last on any channel. I watched Deadwood all the way through and kept waiting, and waiting, and waiting. I regret the hours I wasted on it.

JJ Abrams gets the fanboys all hot, but he has the same inability to deliver and no end game. He had the whole Star Trek oeuvre to review and start fresh and he did absolutely nothing original. And lens flare is annoying.

I enjoyed Rome, full of lies and bulls*** as it was, because the Brits at least expect their actors to have some training (one of the reasons Enver Gjokaj is so good is because he has an MFA), which helps them carry off what would be Grade C here. I'll watch a British flick like Doomsday long before I'll watch the American equivalent.

"Stupid people aren't able to see the gaping plot holes and contrivances in Whedon's writing.

And therefore become Browncoats."

I liked Firefly and Serenity. I didn't consider them great, although "Out of Gas" was one of my favorite episodes of television ever, but my husband does love them. Whatever, it's a safe addiction. But I don't remember any real plot holes in the series or movie that were that bad.

Most television is lazy. Cops, lawyers, doctors. Boring. At least Joss and a few other creators and writers leave me guessing, surprised and entertained on occasion. I'll enjoy the series while they last, and hope they get longer runs.

Dances with Peeps,

Holy #&!$, that was an amazing, persuasive post!!

I don't entirely agree with everything you said (just 80% -- haha), but you, by far, are much more lucid and convincing than the vast majority of regulars I see commenting on Sci Fi Wire stories, myself included.

I guess Joss fans really are a more sophisticated lot (but I'm biased, being one myself)... unlike TSCC fans, who are delusional about the show having any sort of substance (ooo, just had to get in that dirty shot!).

@ Angry

Tscc had one great thing : Cameron, she was a very interesting character IMO, seeing the cyborg interact at school, with a disabled person, with others was interesting, but as much as i Did/Do like Tscc, i think dollhouse season 2 MIGHT be a tad better or on par at least with Tscc Season 2.

Either way you have to admit shows like Dollhouse or Tscc do make you think about life, values and many other things that you cant get out of most CRAP on tv now.

i don't understand sci-fi fans, which i assume we all are, being so uncomfortable with the idea of moral gray areas within the shows we watch. I always had the idea (wrong as it seems to be) that sci-fi fans were a thinking lot that didn't want anything, especially morality spoon fed to them.

Also TSCC fans. (I'm one of you by the way) I don't understand the bitter partisan nature of this rivalry, these are frakking sci fi shows, not Manchester v. Liverpool or Yankees v. Red Sox there is no reason you can't like both.

@HMMM

It's this crazy idea that people have that if it wasn't for Dollhouse then TSCC would still be on. Either that or some weird jealousy that the one show was canceled while the other got a new season. Either way it's sort of asinine.

"Wow, KC, bitter about something?"

Nope just don't like the man, his statements, and the behaviour of his fanbase.

"I liked Firefly and Serenity. I didn't consider them great, although "Out of Gas" was one of my favorite episodes of television ever, but my husband does love them. Whatever, it's a safe addiction. But I don't remember any real plot holes in the series or movie that were that bad. "

My point is that it's typical for Whedonites like the poster I was responding to jumped to the typical defence that everyone who doesn't watch Whedon is 'stupid'.

Which is typical of his rabid fanbase's defences.

However, when I see a Whedon program, all I see is plot holes and plot contrivances. The only thing that made Buffy good wasn't the plotting and arcs but the inital set up of likable characters that drew you in.

If Whedon had wrote Sopranos, Dexter, or The Shield with all the plot holes he left in his work I'd have stopped watching within the first half a dozen episodes.

KC, I quit the Sopranos after the first season. It was repetitive. It was contrived. People died. More people died. People were tortured, then they died. You chose to continue watching it.

Dexter is extremely well written (and my husband is a huge fan) but I quit watching it after the second season. There is some growth on the show, but it always comes back to the fact that Dexter is an extremely f***ed up person who should not be loose on the streets.

I didn't watch The Shield past a couple of episodes. See above.

Again, people who tend to watch and praise this type of television that focuses on the brutish and worst of humanity don't have to live with or around it. I ignore most TV and movie critics because it's obvious that the worst thing that ever happened to them was having to call home during college to tell their parents about getting busted for underage drinking. These shows glorify the worst of humanity. They attract people who want to experience the world vicariously, never worrying that they would actually have to deal with that world.

Dollhouse dealt with the worst of humanity and didn't glorify it. It showed plainly why it was wrong.

I've done work for victims of violence and I have to read the horrifying reports. Death, abuse, violence and exploitation are all part of human life, but they should never be glorified. Ever.

I'd like to know what makes you an authority on what every person who watches a particular kind of TV show lives with or around in their lives.

That sounds pretty presumptuous of you. Truth is you have an opinion on shows you don't like and the "type" of people that watch them. That's all it is. You don't know what's going on in a strangers life anymore than they know what is going on in yours.

@Whedonitesunite,

Sorry I generalized so much, but this is personal experience with people I know and with following critics. People who are "in the life" also tend to like those types of shows, as it represents what they live with and are.

The kind of work I do puts me in contact with all levels of society and all kinds of people. Additionally, I regularly have to review sociological and legal studies and reports on a wide variety of topics. Comparatively, I do know more about the lives of other people, strangers or not, than the average person.

Quit presuming that everyone is like you.

Dances with Peeps,

You have such a unique way of writing -- intelligent yet medicated.

@Wayne,

Actually I'm not medicated at the moment. I tend to write this way because of the work I do; the style bleeds into my personal writing, especially when I'm making an argument. If this were a more casual situation, my writing would be completely different.

dollhouse would have been a good movie but it should never have been a tv series because there was no central character you felt you could invest in . it was fawed from the start and it felt like a personality of the week type of show .

This article irritated me. The problem is that it implies that the way Joss structured the show from the beginning was the way to go. Even if all these changes had been made from the beginning, it would have been a bad show. This post inspired me to write my own post: "5 Ways Dollhouse Could Have Been Great." A quick summary:

5. Don't make the hero an Active.
4. Give the Actives real personalities.
3. Make the Actives prisoners, not volunteers.
2. Have Echo remember her missions.
1. Have Echo escape the Dollhouse.

For more details, check out my URL

I kinda doubt anybody will agree with me, but the obvious, obvious thing to me that would have made Dollhouse better would have been to cast someone other that Dushku. She's a) not that good an actress -- at least from what I saw here in Dollhouse and in Buffy & Angel -- and b) personally annoying.

Just my two cents, and like I said I'm not trying to convince anybody of that.